Perry Robinson's Response to Rick Stamp 

on the Doctrine of the Personality of the Holy Spirit in the 4th Century

The following is copied verbatim from Mark Cunningham's website.  I have reproduced it here for two reasons.

1.  I met and fellowshipped with Perry on several occasions.  He is one of the most widely-read individuals I have ever met, with interests in Patristic studies, Philosophy, Biblical Studies, and Apologetics.  He is also one of the nicest guys I have ever met.

2.  This particular apologetic response became something of a model for me.  It inspired me to be much more thorough in my research and to, as Mark Cunningham says, "leave no stone unturned."  Perry told me that he approached apologetic dialogs as "little research projects," and I have tried to apply that approach to my own efforts.  Thanks for setting the bar so high, Perry!

Mark Cunningham wrote the Introduction.  Perry takes over from there.

Introduction

To those interested parties, Perry Robinson has been having an exchange with Rick Stamp (a Jehovah's witness) concerning the nature of the belief that existed regarding the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit in the fourth century. The debate began with a citation on Rick's part of Augustine of Hippo alleging that Augustine was unsure of the deity or personality of the Holy Spirit late in the fourth century. Rick has since retracted that claim. His own words were the following,

From: rstamp@freenet.nether.net[SMTP:rstamp@freenet.nether.net]

Sent: Friday, March 27, 1998 10:36 AM

To: Robinson,Perry (Anaheim)

Subject: Re: Augustine and the Pnuematomachi

Perry, thank you for your thoughtful response and research.I must admit that I did jump to a hasty conclusion regarding Augustines personal beliefs regarding the HS because I did not read the entire document carefully.

Since Rick has stated publically that he has retracted his position regarding Augustine's views, Perry has only given passing attention to his rejoinder on this issue. The debate then shifted to another Church Father of the fourth century, St. Gregory of Nazianzen. Rick made a number of claims regarding St. Gregory to which Perry responded to in detail. Rick then sent a third volley in Perry's direction using various scholarly works to support his conclusion. Perry was unable to respond at the time because of school and other commitments. Perry was criticized by other Jehovah's Witnesses such as Mark Ross for allegedly holding himself up as an expert in the field of Patristics. To Perry's knowledge or recall he had not and has not made any such claim, but rather only claimed that he have read widely in the field for a layman. As a matter of fact, Rick Stamp said the following on March 27th 1998,

PS, I am sure with your advanced knowledge of Patristics you will find exception to some of what I have written. Please feel free to correct any errors on my part.

Since making this citation known to Mr. Ross, Perry has not heard any further accusations from him.

In the pages that follow Perry will give a detailed and lengthy response to Rick Stamp leaving no stone unturned. Perry's response will encompass three general areas of criticism; sources, logic, and history. Perry will begin with a rehearsal of Rick's initial claims and his secondary claims regarding St. Gregory...now, unto the address:

Rick's Claims Regarding St. Gregory

On March 27th 1998 Rick claimed the following:

1.. 351 The position of The holy spirit was undecided in the years following Nicaea, and for the first time at the council of Sirmium in 351 this was discussed as a question which had to be decided.

2.. 380 In 380 the church Father Gregory Nazianzus wrote about the different views of the Spirit

"But of the wise men amongst ourselves, some have conceived of him as an Activity, some as a Creature, some as God; and some have been uncertain which to call Him." [ Gregory does not himself advocate these teachings, but they are clearly not being denounced as heretical, as they are being proposed by "the wise amongst ourselves".]

3. 381 To put an end to the heresies and schisms that were disturbing both the Church and the State, emperor Theodosius I convened a council at Constantinople in 381. There were two main divisions of opinion, the Machedonians or Pneumatomachians who denied the full deity of the Spirit, and the Cappadochians who defended it. The council reaffirmed the Nicene creed except that it omitted the words 'of the substance of the Father' and 'God from God', but its words about the Spirit were amazingly vague. The Spirit was not called 'God' but 'the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who spoke through the prophets.' This sounds to me as if the words of this creed were chosen either as a compromise between two differing factions and also to be as unprovocative as possible.

4. Considering that the Pneumatomachians clearly taught that the Holy Spirit was not God, and that this council was to directly address this issue it is amazing that the creed which was affirmed at this council does NOT call the Holy Spirit God.

5. My conclusion is that there were many viewpoints on the nature of the Holy Spirit at this time, and even though the Pneumachati prior to the council in 381 asserted that the Holy Spirit was not God, others who did believe that the Holy Sprit was God did not force the issue.

And

"It would be quite some time before any council would affirm that the Orthodox belief included the confession that the Holy Spirit was God, WHY?"

At a later date Rick issued a more detailed and researched set of criticisms in which he extended his claims and made them more clear. I shall give a brief summary of his points below.

1. Rick claims that I claimed that the sense of the citation from the 5th theological oration under dispute was in a negative or pejorative sense.

2. St. Gregory includes himself among the "wise men" who hold varying views on the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit and that he says so himself.

3. St. Gregory's view is the minority view at the time.

4. That Socrates and Didymus the Blind both refrain from calling the Holy Spirit God because of a lack of clear scriptural evidence.

5. That I had criticized Rick for not having any opinions to support his position but his own opinions.

6. That I claimed that Rick had no scholarly support for his view.

7. That I had "backed off" the above alleged claim.

8. That I stated that it did not matter if scholars agreed with him or not.

9. That as late as 308 A.D. that most of the theologians of the Church could not be classified as Trinitarian because of their belief about the Holy Spirit.

10. The Apostle's Creed does not mention the Holy Spirit as divine nor Jesus as divine, thus implying that these doctrines were absent from the Church.

11. The Nicene Creed did not say anything about the deity of the Holy Spirit, again implying that the beleifs were absent from the Church.

12. That the position on the Holy Spirit was undecided in the period following the Council of Nicea (325 A.D.).

13. That the deity of the Holy Spirit was decided first in the second council of Sirmium in 351 A.D.

14. It was at the Synod of Alexandria (362 A.D.) that the orthodox first took up the definite position with regard to whether the Holy Spirit is a creature, but the creed did not in effect renounce this view.

15. That the orthodox withheld speaking forth their position and only held it as a pious opinion.

16. Rick claims that Harnack substantiates the view that the belief in the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit was not handed down from the Apostles.

17. That St. Gregory somehow denies that this doctrine is based in Scripture and that Harnack and Lampe support the perspective that it is either not found in scripture or that the Fathers did not think it could be found or was to be found in Scripture.

18. That the doctrine of the Holy Spirit was not articulated as late as 380 A.D. because not all of the Church's theologians held to the orthodox perspective.

19. That the Creed of Constantinople did not call the Holy Spirit "God."

20. That George Park Fisher supports the claim that some of the theologians of the Church did not hold the orthodox viewpoint and rather held a great diversity of opinion.

21. That Adolf von Harnack supports the claim that some of the Church's theologians did not hold the orthodox view and adduces the Homoiousians as evidence of this fact.

22. That G.H.W. Lampe supports the contention that the Church's position was still undecided regarding the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit.

23. That Adolf von Harnack thinks that the sense of the term "wise men" is not in a negative way or connotation.

24. Adolf von Harnack claims that the lack of a tangible tradition exercised a strong influence on the Fathers.

25. That Adolf von Harnack claims that according to St. Gregory that God merely indicated the deity of the Holy Spirit in scripture and did not reveal it till post-apostolic times so as to not place too much burden upon men.

26. That St. Gregory claims that those who affirm the deity of the Holy Spirit have something heroic about them. (Orat. 41, 6)

27. That Adolf von Harnack claims that the first of the question of the Holy Spirit is found at the council of Sirmium in 351 A.D.

28. That Harnack claims that it was at the Synod of Alexandria (362) that the orthodox first took up the definite position with regard to this question that whoever regards the Holy Spirit as a creature and separates it from the substance of Christ, in so doing divides up the Holy Trinity, gives a hypocritical adherence to the Nicene Faith, and has merely in appearance renounced Arianism.

29. That Adolf von Harnack claims that the Creed of Constantinople's declaration of the Holy Spirit does not go as far as the Homousian position.

These are all the claims that I can see in the collection of Rick's Reponses to me over the past few months. I have listed them so as to make clear that I have not left anything out and that I have accurately represented his position. I do not want to find myself misrepresenting him or causing an argument where there should not be one if we are simply missing each others' points.

Now that I have laid out the battlefield I would like to begin by examining the structure of a number of Rick's arguments.

Appeals to Authority

Rick makes a number of appeals to authority in his responses to me and so I would like to present some criticisms of his use of them and what exactly an appeal to authority really proves.

An appeal to authority can be defined simply as citing another person's opinion to support a specific conclusion. This is usually in the form of appealing to someone who is in a specific position to know what occurred at a specific time or place. For example, "The Volcano did not explode at 10 am because James was there monitoring it until 12 noon." This example brings out the fact that James was in a position to have access to the correct information. Hence some types of appeals to authority have to do with the accessibility of an agent to specific information in order to support a conclusion. Another form of the appeal to authority is related to expert opinion. That is, a specific person has specialized in acquiring information on a specific area of knowledge. Often times in court cases a forensic specialist will come to give his opinion about the information. That is, his interpretation of the facts, or his knowledge of the facts is seen as carrying weight because of his or her privileged position which was gained for them by recognized means of study. This second type seems to be what Rick is using in order to make his argument against the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Spirit. But what exactly makes an appeal an appeal to authority?

Generally, one must have specialized knowledge in a specific field of study and acquired the peer recognized badges or tokens of scholarship and credibility, i.e. a Ph.D. degree, etc. It can also be the case that one does not have these credentials in the field in question, but one brings to the field knowledge from another field of study that has relevance for the point being discussed. Hence Carsten Theide, who is a papyrologist is not a New Testament textual critic, but his expertise in ancient manuscripts gives him special insight into the field of NT textual criticism. Hence, relevance plays an important factor in appealing to authorities.

Now there are problems with appealing to authorities. The first thing to note is that an appeal to an authority does not make what is being claimed by the authority true. Authorities are fallible and can be in error. For example, Aristotle's opinion that the sun and planets revolved around the earth was taken on his authority, and he was obviously in error. That is, Aristotle was thought to be a trustworthy source of information because of his possession of information and his reasoning abilities. Patrick Hurley lists some reasons why authorities might not be trustworthy or correct in their opinions.

"There are several reasons why an authority or witness might not be trustworthy. The person might lack the requisite expertise, might be biased or prejudiced, might have a motive to lie or to disseminate 'misinformation,' or might lack the requisite ability to perceive or recall." (Hurley, Patrick J., A Concise Introduction to Logic, Univ. of San Diego, Wadsworth Pub Co., 1991, p. 126)

This general point should not be missed. If one were to grant that all of the information that a specific authority presented was accurate, that does not mean that the authorities' opinion about the information is true. Other than the problem of fallibility, there is the problem of multiple authorities in a given field which ties into the above mentioned problem.

For example, I am often confronted by atheists or skeptics on the topic of the historical Jesus who cite the "Jesus Seminar" as an authority to try and prove that either Jesus never existed or that much of what is believed to be his words and deeds were attributed to him as a process of mythologization by the early Church. While it is true that there are biblical scholars on the Jesus Seminar it is also true that there are other scholars who disagree with them. Hence the atheist or skeptic who cites them and thinks that by citing one group of scholars that the issue is settled has not really grasped the problem.

Secondly, there can be problems in the assumptions or methods of an authority that is being cited. For example, I once had the pleasure of listening to a lecture by Ronald Hawk who was at the time the head of the Religion Department at USC and is a member of the Jesus Seminar. Dr. Hawk had some very interesting views. These views rested on specific assumptions and methodologies that I found to be questionable. For example, he assumed that the NT documents were folklore or mythological. He based his methods of criticism on this and other assumptions. I proposed problems regarding this assumption, such as it starts with a naturalistic view of the world, assumes a late date for the text, etc. which rendered his conclusions either false or highly questionable. The Jesus Seminar's method of dissimilarity, for example, seems to be an example of how faulty methods can lead to faulty conclusions. The principle generally states that those things which were not uttered by Jews or Hebrews previous to Jesus or which the early church believed were to be excluded from the set of things that Jesus did say or teach. This left them with a small number of sayings. From this, in part, they support the idea that the teaching of Jesus first started with small sayings and eventually evolved into mythological gospels and that much of what we thought Jesus said or taught, he probably did not.

Now, does not this principle assume that everything that Jesus taught was original to him, such that if he reiterated a point of theology that Moses had mentioned or some other prophet that the scholars on the Jesus Seminar would have excluded this from consideration a priori without examining the evidence for its authenticity? I think it does. Hence faulty assumptions and faulty methodologies can lead to faulty or at the very least, questionable conclusions.

Thirdly, there is another problem with citing authorities. Sometimes an authority's work done in the past becomes outdated. That is, current studies show faulty methods, assumptions or reasoning on the part of the authority in question. Margaret Mead, the "mother" of modern sociology for example proclaimed that peoples of the Southern Pacific viewed sexuality very loosely. She claimed that the society was basically "if it itches, scratch it." This research of hers deeply influenced sociology for years to come and it had a deep impact on the counter-culture of the 1960's in the U.S. But now, after some 40 years, it has come to light that low and behold Margaret Mead falsified her data. That is, she lied. She did so because she was having an affair with, I believe, her brother-in-law. (For a discussion of this see Jones, Peter, Degenerate Moderns: Modernity as Rationalized Sexual Misbehavior.)

This example ties more in with a kind of bias that I will discuss below so let me find another example. In the realm of geology for example, before the 1950's the geological community believed that the continents were fixed items. When this view was challenged near the beginning of this century by a laymen who advocated that the continents moved, he was ignored. Now this view is agreed upon by all geologists in the field. It is known as plate-tectonics. Other examples could be sited such as Newton's physics being superceded by Einstein's theory of Relativity or Quantum Mechanics. But the point is easy to see, to appeal to these thinkers now would obviously be fallacious or at least questionable on those areas of knowledge where new information has caused us to change our views.

Now we come to the question of bias or prejudice and I would like to say a few things at this juncture. What exactly do I mean by bias? I take bias to mean two distinct things in this context. First bias refers to a state of mind in which an agent is committed to a view held with or without sufficient warrant with such tenacity that they will violate the right rules of reason and/or procedure to continue to hold them. This generally carries the connotation of prejudice with it. Bias can also refer to a lack of objectivity in evaluating some view. But what the heck is "objectivity?" I take it that there are three general conceptions of objectivity which I will list below.

1.. That an agent follows the right rules or procedures of examination and evaluation in an inquiry. (logical and empirical)

2.. That an agent examines information from a neutral or "God's eye" perspective.

3.. That things exist independent of an agents' assent or lack of assent to them.

I think the first one is highly relevant to my discussion here as is # 2. While I think that # 1 is possible, I do not think that # 2 is possible. Let me explain. Everyone has a perspective or worldview from which they understand the world. These are deeply seated assumptions or presuppositions about reality, ethics and how we know things. These assumptions form the basis, web and structure of our beliefs such that we interpret all incoming information according to them. Hence if a Christian is arguing with an atheist and both are appealing to some fact in the world to prove or disprove the existence of God (let's say causality for example) the Christian and the atheist will interpret the same information in different ways because of their presuppositions about reality. There is no neutral starting point or common ground between them. Hence, a debate in which one person claims to be "unbiased" or to have no "presuppositions" is an illusion. It is simply not the case. The question is, who has the right presuppositions?

Now the relevance here is that part of my contention is that certain sources or authorities that Rick has cited are either biased in the sense that they violate the right rules of reason or procedure or they claim to be neutral in examining the topic and are not. Some of them may be coming from a non-Christian, and I would even venture to say, an anti-Christian perspective which not only motivates them, but also "flavors" their interpretation of the facts. Furthermore, I will argue that some of those sources apply methods to come to the conclusions in certain areas that Rick has cited, but which he rejects when applied to other areas of study. This posits a double standard on Rick's part. On top of this some of his sources are quite dated. I will discuss this in more detail later.

The three points that I want to make clear from this discussion is that appeals to authority at best only accomplish two things,

1.. The level of probability for a claim to be true is increased

2.. Appealing to an authority does not make the claim true ipso facto.

3.. That appealing to an authority with the thought that just because an authority says something that that makes it true is an informal fallacy.

Let's move on to look at two other fallacies other than appeal to authority that I think will be relevant in this discussion.

Stacking the Deck

This fallacy generally stated occurs when one party in an argument only presents evidence or arguments for one side of the debate. Hence the individual "stacks" the evidence in his or her favor such that they ignore pertinent evidence for the opposing side.

Absence of Evidence

This fallacy occurs when an individual argues by the lack of evidence for a position that the opposite conclusion is true. This is a kind of the ad ignoratiam fallacy. Atheists for example, argue that since we have no physical evidence of the crossing of the Red Sea by Moses that it did not occur. Many scholars years ago held the view that the group of people called the Hittites mentioned in the Bible were fictitious because we lacked physical evidence of their existence. A simple axiom will help a person in not committing this fallacy: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This is also an argument from silence.

Adolf von Harnack: A Case in Point

In his response to me Rick Stamp makes use of the German scholar Adolf von Harnack to a large degree to substantiate his case against the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit. But who was Harnack? Was he a reliable and trustworthy authority? Was he prejudiced? Are his methods based on faulty assumptions? Are his conclusions based on anti-Christian presuppositions? Are his conclusions outdated? I will examine these questions below.

Adolf von Harnack was born in 1778 and was the son of a famous Lutheran theologian Theodosius Harnack. In 1886-1898 he wrote his History of Dogma for which he became famous or infamous, depending on who you asked. In 1889 he became a professor in Berlin and continued teaching there until his death. (See The Westminster Dictionary of Church History, Westminster Press, 1971, p. 386-387)

"His appointment to Berlin was a cause of serious controversy; it was held up for several months, and the matter was finally resolved by the Emperor William II's decision overuling the Church's officials. Opposition to Harnack's appointment was based on his History of Dogma, the first volume of which had appeared in 1885. The publication of the multivolume Dogmengeschichte introduced Harnack to a lifetime of theological controversy and lead to a painful break with his father. The shadow of suspicion was never completely removed from Harnack's career as church historian and, despite his eminent position, he never was given any position of authority or honour by the Church." Livingstone, James C., Modern Christian Thought: From the Enlightenment to Vatican II, Macmillian Pub Co., 1971, p. 257)

Harnack was a follower of Albrecht Ritschl, a major thinker in Protestant Liberalism at the time. Harnack himself soon became a model of German Protestant Liberalism. He naturalized theology, that is, he saw Christianity in terms of anthropology.

"The Christian faith was reinterpreted through 'general anthropology,' not identified by a revealed Word transcendently addressed to man. Adolf von Harnack (1851-1931), who clung to this illusion to the end of his life, voiced the neo-Protestant credo as follows: the 'proper object of faith is not God in his revelation, but man himself believing in the divine." (Carl F.H. Henry, God, Revelation and Authority, Word Publishers, Waco, TX, Vol. 2, 1976, p. 120)

"Of the many influences that helped to shape Harnack the historian and theologian, none was greater than that of Albrecht Ritschl. It was during his period in Leipzig that Harnack first identified himself with the Ritschlian school. A few years later Harnack acknowledged that his own Dogmengeschichte [History of Dogma] would not have been possible without Ritschl" Livingstone, James C., Modern Christian Thought: From the Enlightenment to Vatican II, Macmillian Pub Co., 1971, p. 258

The first quote reveals Harnack's anti-supernaturalistic presupposition against the truth of Christianity. In essence he was a humanist who interpreted the facts according to his humanistic presuppositions. Thus Harnack was deemed a leading representative of liberal theology.

"These two thinkers, Schleiermacher and Hegel, are the points toward which all elements go and from which they then diverge, later bringing about the demand for new syntheses. We will see how these new syntheses have been attempted again and again, and finally what in my opinion has to be done today. So the whole story has a dramatic character. It is the drama of the rise of a humanism in the midst of Christianity which is critical of the Christian tradition, departs from it and produces a vast world of secular existence and thought. Then there is the rise of some of the greatest philosophers and theologians who try to unite these divergent elements again. Their syntheses in turn are destroyed and the divergent elements collide and try to conquer each other, and new attempts to reunite them have to be made. The Ritschlian school is an example of this, with Harnack as its leading representative. And in our century there is the Bultmann school and so on." Braaten, Carl E., Paul Tillich and the Classical Christian Tradition, in Tillich, Paul, Perspectives on the 19th & 20th Century Protestant Theology, 1967, p.5

"Toward the close of the last century human thought was generally under the influence of the Darwinian theory of evolution. Mankind was said to be in an upward march, and the idea of a real fall into sin seemed absurd. Great strides in science and invention were being made; new discoveries were carried out. In the field of theology the ideas of Ritschl were widespread and their practical effect made itself known in the phenomenon which is popularly called 'modernism', a new phenomenon which has wrought unbelievable harm to the well-being of the Church of Jesus Christ. In the New Testament studies the influence of Adolf Harnack with his purely human Jesus was very prominent. The philosophy of Hegel undergirded certain views of the history of Israel. A veritable complex of ideas held sway. It was a climate of opinion which was hostile to the supernatural redemptive Christianity and which proved to be one of the greatest foes of that religion." E.J. Young, Thy Word is Truth, Banner of Truth Trust, 1991, reprint, p. 193

"Adolf von Harnack (1851-1930). He taught at Leipzig (1874), Giessen (1879), Marbug (1886) and Berlin (1888-1921). Though mainly a Church historian, he covered New Testament matters as well, and was the most prominent representative of liberal German criticism until his death. His support for Germany's war aims in 1914 disillusioned the young Karl barth, and helped to set him on a theological journey away from liberalism. His main work was the History of Dogma (Dogmengeschichte), which came out in several volumes between 1886 and 1869, and was soon translated into English (1894-9). (Bray, Gerald, Biblical Interpretation: Past and Present, IVP, 1996, p. 338)

Harnack produced some popular works in which he tried to communicate his views to the masses.

"When this century opened. Liberal theology was rapidly moving to the fore in sophisticated circles. Harnak's book, What is Christianity? became a record-setting best seller. In it the ideas that had been maturing through Schleiermacher, Ritschl , and others were presented forcefully in a form that the average man could grasp." William Hordern, New Directions in Theology Today, Westminster Press, 1966, Vol. 1 Introduction, p. 13

"At the turn of the century the great church historian Adolf von Harnack delivered a series of popular lectures at Berlin in answer to the question What is Christianity? His reply stressed the spiritual and moral content and pushed the supernatural into the background. He insisted that 'Jesus himself did not assign that critical importance to his miraculous deeds which even the evangelist Mark and the others all had attributed to them.' Harnack saw the essence of Jesus' teaching grouped under three headings; 'Firstly, the kingdom of God and its coming. Secondly, God the Father and the infinite value of the human soul. Thirdly, the higher righteousness and the commandment to love.' Jesus took over two views of the kingdom of God that were related to each other as a husk is to the kernel. From Judaism he inherited the husk: the kingdom as a future event-the external rule of God. But he also saw the kingdom as an inward reality that elevates people spiritually and transforms them morally. This was the central reality of Jesus' message. The stories of exorcisms belong to the outer husk of contemporary beliefs that the evangelists shared. Harnack treated them as primitive ways of describing mental disorders that are 'rare occurrence nowadays.' 'Where they occur the best means of encountering them is to-day, as it was formerly, the influence of a strong personality.'" (Colin Brown, Miracles and the Modern Mind, Eerdmans/Paternoster Press, 1984, p. 127)

"The consequences of this false distinction between judgements of fact and judgements of value have proved a veritable hereditas damnosa in the subsequent theological discussion. From it springs directly the false contacts between the 'simple Gospel' of Jesus and the 'theology' of the apostolic Church. The true Gospel is regarded as consisting in the simple facts about Jesus and teachings of the historical Jesus, who can thus be objectively portrayed by modern historical research, while the interpretations of St. Paul and the other apostles may be discarded as representing values for them which are no longer values for us. Hence the Ritschlians present the history of Christian dogma as pronouncing its own condemnation in the eyes of all unprejudiced Christians people. Harnack worked out this view with massive thoroughness in the learned volumes of his History of Dogma. The Creed of Nicea, the formulary of Chalcedon, the dogmatic writings of the Fathers, even the Epistles of St. Paul, represent 'the work of the spirit of a decadent antiquity on the soil of the Gospel.' The Chief emphasis is placed upon the contrast between the original Gospel of Jesus and the theological interpretations of the Church, between the Sermon on the Mount and the Nicene Creed. ' The one belongs to the world of Syrian peasants, the other to a world of Greek philosophers.' [Comment by Hatch] Thus it was thought necessary to separate the kernal from the husk, to get back behind 'the religion about Jesus' to 'the religion of Jesus'. The apostles ought to have been content to report the words and record the deeds of Jesus, instead of becoming, as they did, interpreters of the significance and value of His person. So we come to the familiar antithesis, beloved Jesus taught simple, ethical monotheism; Paul invented Christology and is the real founder of Christianity. Paul was the first on the basis of the death and resurrection of Jesus to develop a theology as a means of separation from the religion of the Old Testament. Not dogmas but value judgements were the fruits of revelation, and so Ritschl refuse to discuss such doctrines as the pre-existence of Christ, or the Two Natures in Christ, or the relation of the Persons within the Trinity, as having no real bearing upon our experience and as therefore lying beyond our range; we understand Christ's person and nature by understanding what He has done for men, by His worth for our own souls, by recognizing that He has done for us what only God can do. Thus according to the Ritschlian theology revelation is given in the formation of true judgements of value upon certain historical events or deeds. It is an error to suppose that the Richlians thought that judgements of fact were more important than judgements of value, or that judgements of value were false because they were subjective. They were trying to safeguard the objectivity of the facts themselves, as existing independently of the wishes of the believer. They thus placed great emphasis upon the historical character of the revelation, and they held that historical research, being scientific and independent of all value-judgements, could put an end to subjective speculation and free us from all the 'accretions' of traditional dogmas. Hence the importance of the 'quest of the historical Jesus'." Alan Richardson, Christian Apologetics, Harper & Brothers, 1947, p. 148-149

Harnack thus saw the New Testament as existential truth shrouded within layers of mythology. Basically, Jesus was only a good moral teacher and Paul was the real inventor of Christianity. What this also shows is that Harnack made a claim to being neutral in examining the facts, which is impossible. Everyone examines the facts from a certain perspective. So in essence Harnack read back into history his own biases and prejudices.

"The most memorable comment on Harnack's best-selling portrait of Jesus came from the pen of the Catholic Modernist, Father George Tyrell, 'The Christ that what Harnack sees, looking back through nineteen centuries of Catholic darkness, is only the reflection of a Liberal Protestant face, seen at the bottom of a deep well." (Colin Brown, Miracles and the Modern Mind, Eerdmans/Paternoster Press, 1984, p. 128)

"Adolf von Harnack, one of Karl Barth's mentors, had correlated the so-called objective historical-scientific criticism of Scripture with philosophical idealism and insisted that a primitive non-supernatural Jesus has priority over the supernatural Pauline Christ. Barth assailed this popular critical view and launched a strikingly different approach to biblical interpretation and New Testament exegesis. While Barth agreed with Harnack's insistence that as a corpus of historical records the Bible should be open to critical investigation, he emphasized that historical criticism had not in fact achieved consensus on a single authentic portrait of Jesus of Nazereth. Barth labeled Harnack's supposedly neutral historical exegesis and non-supernatural Jesus as in actuality a reflection of Harnack's personal theological prejudices; liberal theology, observed Barth, neglected the primary theme of revelation by its one sided historical interest that eclipses revelatory relationships between God and man." (Carl F.H. Henry, God, Revelation and Authority, Word Publishers, Waco, TX, Vol. 4, 1979, p. 297 See also Brown, Colin, Jesus in European Protestant Thought: 1778-1860, Baker Book House, 1985, pp. 72-73)

Harnack's liberalism got him into trouble on occasion and not a few others as well.

"In the 1880's and 1890's the issue of subscription to the Apostles' Creed was hotly debated. In 1888 a candidate was denied ordination for refusing to assent to the virgin birth of Christ and the descent into hell. In Wittemberg in 1892 Schrempf, a pastor, was removed from his post for affirming that "conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary,' 'ascended into heaven,' and 'the resurrection of the body' were not to be taken literally. That same decade Harnack was censured for saying that the virgin birth of Christ need not be accepted as historic fact but could be regarded merely as a symbol of the incarnation. It was also in the 1890's that Prussian ecclesiastical bodies were divided over the question of assent to the Apostles' Creed as a requirement for ordination and that a somewhat ambiguous compromise was effected."Kenneth Scott Latourette, Christianity in a Revolutionary Age: Vol. 2-The 19th Century in Europe, Zondervan, 1969, p. 37

His works were soon published in other countries and he found opponents there as well on various subjects, not the least of which was the Holy Spirit and the Apostles Creed. In these two areas he was met with an able opponent in the Anglican scholar Henry Barclay Swete.

"In Germany recent controversy has been more thoroughgoing, turning upon history of the Creed. There are indications that public attention amongst ourselves will shortly be directed to the latter point. Professor Harnack's pamphlet, which in Germany passed through five-and-twenty editions during the course of a year, has been reproduced in the pages of an English periodical with a commendatory preamble by the pen of the authoress of Robert Elsmere." Swete, H.B., The Apostles' Creed: It's Relation to Primitive Christianity, Cambridge Univ. Press, 1894, p. 12

Harnack not only was liberal in his views on Church history and the Trinity but also in other areas of Christian theology as well, such as the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection and Miracles. Harnack writes,

"We are firmly convinced that what happens in space and time is subject to the general laws of motion, and that in this sense, as an interruption of the order of nature, there can be no such things as miracles." (What is Christianity? p. 28f)

Regarding the Virgin birth, Harnack claims "…it is one of the best established results of history that the clause does not belong to the earliest gospel preaching." (Cited in Swete, The Apostles' Creed, p. 43)

Regarding the Resurrection of the flesh, Harnack claims, "…we can hardly doubt that from the very earliest times the resurrection of the flesh was preached by a few Christians, but it was not a universal doctrine." (Cited in Swete, The Apostles'Creed, p. 90)

It should also be noted that Harnack also thought that such doctrines as the Ascension and the pre-existence of Jesus were not part of "the earliest gospel preaching" either. For a deeper discussion, see Swete, The Apostles' Creed and J. Gresham Machen, The Virgin Birth of Christ and The Origin of Paul's Religion.

But how did Harnack deduce this? What was his basic outlook? Harnack viewed the history of Christianity as a process of Hellenization, that is, a process where Christianity moved away from Jesus' simple ethical teachings and became wedded to philosophical concepts of Greek philosophy. Harnack did not see the Greeks in themselves as Greeks as the problem. He argued that any intellecutualization of the faith was a Hellenization. Thus, he saw St. Paul as the primary culprit with the idea of a divine saviour, resurrection, etc. The Gnostic heretic Marcion was Harnack's chief hero since he hellenized Christianity in a way that was more towards individual ethics. This thesis of a process of hellenzation was derived from Hegel's dialectical process of history. Hegel thought that there was a movement of history in which contradictory statements became synthesized into an agreement. This outlook flavored Harnack's whole approach and hence he read Church history as a process of hellenization. His major work, The History of Dogma was written to support this thesis. Eventually his theory was disproved and hence his starting assumptions left many of his conclusions highly questionable.

"Adolf von Harnack, in his classic study of Christian thought, asserted that gnosticism was the result of the 'lasting influence of Greek philosophy and the Greek spirit generally on Judiasm.' He went on to say, in a phrase which for many years would remain the definitive statement on the subject, 'The gnostic systems represent the acute secularizing or hellenizing of Christianity.' Following Harnack's lead, A.D. Nick felt tempted to speak of the Gnostic movement as 'Platonism run wild.' After the Nag Hammadi discovery as well as the unearthing of the Dead Sea Scrolls at approximately the same time, it became impossible to accept Harnack's simple hellenization theory any longer." Philip J. Lee, Against the Protestant Gnostics, Oxford, 1987, pp. 5-6

"Harnack saw in this development a second wave of Hellenization. The first wave was gnosticism, and the second wave was the formulation of the ancient dogma." in Tillich, Paul, Perspectives on the 19th & 20th Century Protestant Theology, 1967, p. 220

"With the rise of modern historical criticism a great gulf became fixed between the Old and the New Testaments. Again, voices could be heard within the church urging the removal or de-emphasis of the Old Testament. Shades of Marcionism returned in Adolf von Harnack's book on Marcion. 'The rejection of the Old Testament in the second century was an error which the great church rightly opposed; holding on to it in the sixteenth century was a destiny which the Reformation was not able to escape; but for Protestantism to preserve it since the nineteenth century as a canonical document is the result of a religious and ecclesiastical paralysis. To clear the table and to honor the truth in our confession and instruction, that is the great feat required of Protestantism today-almost too late.' The Church is asked by Harnack to admit that the Old Testament forms no essential part of her faith and life." Carl E. Braaten, New Directions in Theology Today, Westminster Press, Vol. 2 History and Hermeneutics, p. 106

"Marcion (d. c. 144) He believed that the God of the Old Testament was a deity inferior to the Father of Jesus Christ, because he was the creator ('Demiurge') of matter, which was intrinsically evil. The Christian revelation therefore had to be purified of its Jewish elements, which were primitive and unworthy of true religion. Adolf von Harnack (1851-1930) thought that Marcion was a restorer of Pauline theology in the face of Judaizing tendencies, but this idea has never been widely accepted. Marcions's radical rejection of the creator God had its philosophical basis in Platonism, which thought of matter as evil and of salvation as the separation of the soul from it. His programme of radical 'cleansing' of the New Testament reduced the canonical text to Luke-Acts and the Pauline epistles, but even these could not be understood apart from their Jewish background, and had to be purged. Marcion's hermenutical project virtually destroyed the New Testament along with the Old, and the church has never been tempted to follow his lead, however much it may have allegorized or even ignored the Jewish Scriptures." (Bray, Gerald, Biblical Interpretation: Past and Present, IVP, 1996, p. 80)

"…Harnack produced this massive study [History of Dogma] to demonstrate historically that if the Christian gospel was to remain a living force in the modern world, it must be freed from dogma-the reason being that 'as the adherents of the Christian religion had not these dogmas from the beginning…the business of the history of dogma is to ascertain the origin of Dogmas and then to describe their development.' For by delineating the process by which dogmas originate and develop 'the history of dogma' furnishes the most suitable means for the liberation of the Church from dogmatic Christianity'– or of overcoming history by history." Livingstone, James C., Modern Christian Thought: From the Enlightenment to Vatican II, MacMillian Pub Co., 1971, p. 258

"In the twentieth century however the sharpest questioning has been directed not so much to the doctrine itself as to its origin, with historical exegesis providing the challenge rather than philosophical speculation. A. Harnack had already defined the development of dogma as the progressive hellenization of the gospel, as the transplanting of the gospel of Jesus 'into Greek modes of thought', a process which goes back to Paul himself. The History of Religions school which pioneered the investigation of Christian origins within the context of the religious thought and practice of the wider Hellenistic world, raised the more provocative question of whether the whole idea of God become man had in fact simply been taken over from surrounding religious syncretism, an already well developed myth of a divine figure descending to earth to redeem the elect (the so-called 'Gnostic redeemer myth') borrowed by the early Christians and applied to the risen Jesus. With Harnack's formulation, the dogma of the incarnation could be said to have originated as a translation equivalent as the gospel of Jesus was re-expressed in the wider and different catagories of Greek philosophy. But if the dogma originated as a foreign import into Christianity of an already established Gnostic myth the issue becomes more serious: did the doctrine of the incarnation begin as an alien intrusion into Christianity? In the last thirty years or so the question as thus posed has been answered with an increasingly confident No!" (Dunn, James D.G., Christology in the Making: A New Testament Inquiry Into the Origins of the Doctrine of the Incarnation, Westminster Press, 1980, pp. 2-3)

"The idea that the first Christian churches were more like Greek religious associations than like synagogues was developed by E. Hatch, whose views were to have a great influence in Germany as well as in England. The discovery of the Didache in 1883 forced A. von Harnack to modify these ideas considerably, by recognizing that the offices of apostle, prophet and teacher were intended for the use of the whole church, and not just the local congregation, so that the 'club' model was inappropriate. However, Harnack never deserted Hatch's main thesis, in spite of the evidence which appeared to contradict it." (Bray, Gerald, Biblical Interpretation: Past and Present, IVP, 1996, p.362)

"But the church nevertheless used concepts of the hellenistic world. You should not call them Greek pure and simple, for Classical Greek did not last far beyond the second century before Christ. Hellenism followed this, and Hellenism is a mixture of Greek, Persian, Egyptian, Jewish and even Indian elements, and mystical groups of all kinds. It is a mixed religiosity in which the Greek concepts were used, but in a religiously transformed sense." Tillich, Paul, Perspectives on the 19th & 20th Century Protestant Theology, 1967, p. 221

"Harnack's criticism was that in this way Christianity became intellectualized. But Harnack was wrong in this respect. My Main criticism of his has been right on this point. The more our knowledge of the gnostics and the whole Hellenistic culture has increased in the last fifty years, the more we see how wrong he was in this respect. He considered Hellenism as identical with intellectualization. This is not at all true. This is not even true of Plato, or Aristotle and the Stoics. Every great philosophy is rooted in an existential emergency, in a situation of questioning out of which saving answers must come." (Tillich, Paul, Perspectives on the 19th & 20th Century Protestant Theology, 1967, p. 221)

"According to Harnack a foreign element entered into Christianity when terms like ousia and hypostasis were used in constructing the official dogma of the church. This process began not only in the fourth and fifth-century councils, but already in the apostolic fathers, and that means in the generation which is contemporaneous with the latest biblical writings. Then this process received a strong impetus from the apologists who elaborated the logos concept in theology. All this can be called Hellenization, but how else could it have happaned? The pagans were not Jews, and so the Jewish concepts could not be used. Besides, the Jewish concepts were not used so much even in the circles in which Jesus and John the Baptist arose. If you read the Dead Sea Scrolls, you will find that the Old Testament concepts are there, but even more you will find elements from the apocalyptic movements from the intertestamental period. Even Judaism had adapted to the new situation. It could not have been done in any other way if Judaism or Christianity were to survive. Harnack's greatness is that he showed this process of Hellenization. His shortcoming is that he did not see the necessity of it. Those of us who studied under the influence of Harnack's History of Dogma sensed a tremendous liberation. It was the liberation from the necessity of identifying Hellenistic concepts with the Christian message itself. On the other hand, I would not accept the idea which one hears so much that all the Greek elements must be thrown out and only the old Testament terms should be used. Christianity, it is suggested, is basically a matter of the Old Testament language and a continuation of Old Testament theology and piety. If this were to be done consistently, at least two-thirds of the new Testament wold have to be ruled out, for both Paul and John used a lot of Hellenistic concepts. Besides, it would rule out the whole history of doctrine. This idea is a new bondage to a particular development, the Old Testament development. Christianity is not nearer to the Jews than to the Greeks. I believe that the one who expressed that was the great missionary to the Greeks and to the Hellenistic pagan world." (Tillich, Paul, Perspectives on the 19th & 20th Century Protestant Theology, 1967, p. 221-222)

"My criticism of the whole liberal theology, including Harnack, is that it had no real systematic theology; it believed in the results of historical research in a wrong way. Therefore, its systematic utterances were comparatively poor." (Tillich, Paul, Perspectives on the 19th & 20th Century Protestant Theology, 1967, p. 223-Also of note is the fact that one of Rick's own sources, Woflson, The Philosophy of the Church Fathers criticizes Harnack for his views on the alleged "Hellenization" of Christianity. See Wolfson, p. 574, foot note 121, p. 358-359)

"The approach to study of the Fathers from the viewpoint of patristic writings as literature has opened new views. Their beauty and strength and spontaneity were discovered. On the basis of literary and philological study, it has been claimed the writings were of high literary style, and not a decay of classical culture. Gibbon in his history said Christianity killed culture, but philological study denies this. There are two positions (thesis): 1) Christianity disrupted ancient culture; 2) Christianity absorbed too much ancient culture. Harnack's thesis that man suffered so much throughout the centuries simply because Christianity opposed ancient culture, is unacceptable today." Constantine N. Tsorpanlis, An Introduction to Eastern Patristic Thought and Orthodox Theology, Liturgical Press, 1991 p. 22

"Professor Harnack brings to his study of sub-apostolic writers a preconception which to his own mind has assumed the dimensions of a historical fact." Swete, H.B., The Apostles' Creed: It's Relation to Primitive Christianity, MacMillian Pub Co., 1894, p. 28)

It should also be noted that amid all of the controversies that he was embroiled in Harnack is not considered a patrictics scholar.

"Bauer was the founder of the Tubigen School and also the first to use the term dogmageshichte (History of Dogma), as well as the dialectical method in interpreting Christian Doctrine. He discovered Paulinism in the New Testament and a synthesis of the Antiochian and Alexandiran school. Bauer believed that the process would go on. Ritshl continued the thought of Bauer. This was in turn picked up by Von Harnack, one of the greatest patrologists and philologists, but not a patristics scholar. He was a great historian, but he believed his history was a history of human accretions. Dogma was a human accretion too, according to Harnack-an intellectual cultivation of Hellenization of Christian Doctrine. The basic idea of Harnack was that dogma is an intellectual exercise and certain nineteenth-century methods. Harnack was inspired by old anti-Hegelianism and, although a great historian, he did not know secular history or world political history. Hence, he was attacked by the political historians as un-historical." Constantine N. Tsorpanlis, An Introduction to Eastern Patristic Thought and Orthodox Theology, Liturgical Press, 1991 p. 20-21

Let me review the pertinent points of the various scholars.

1.. Harnack was not a patristics scholar

2.. Harnack started with anti-Christian and anti-supernaturalistic presuppositions.

3.. Harnack had a preconceived notion of Christian history which colored his whole approach.

4.. Harnack was motivated by his own personal theological and philosophical prejudices.

5.. Harnack was never accepted into any position of authority in the Church.

6.. Harnack's basic theory of history was shaped by Hegelianism.

7.. Harnack's conclusions are outdated and criticised today by both liberal and conservative scholars in multiple fields.

8.. Harnack's methods and assumptions forced him to reject major doctrines of Christianity such as the Virgin birth, the deity and pre-existence of Jesus, the Resurrection of the body, the possiblity of miracles, the existence of demons, exorcism and Jesus as the promised Messiah.

I think these 8 points lessen the authority of Harnack as appealed to by Rick Stamp. These problems with Harnack lessen the probable truth-value of Rick's overall claims. It is no surprise to me that Rick would use Harnack and other liberal theologians, especially those of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Jehovah's Witnesses are in the habit of presenting evidence from liberal/humanistic scholars in order to undermine traditional Christian doctrines, while ignoring these same scholars' conclusions when it applies to doctrines that he holds as true. That is, they hunts for citations from scholars to substantiate their opinions, while neglecting and rejecting the methods and assumptions that those scholars used to come to various conclusions. This is exemplified in the JW booklet, "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" page 11 where they cite Harnack. I find this to an inconsistency both on the part of the WT society and Rick Stamp. The Society has clearly prescribed a position on this point.

"When you make references to the Scriptures or to any other authority, be definite. And use reliable, capable authority. The Bible is the most conclusive and reliable of all. Quoting from official publications of an organization to show what they believe is good. Also one wants to use evidence from an authority that the hearers will accept." (Qualified to Be Ministers¸WTBTS, 1967, p. 166)

Now did Rick:

1.. Use a reliable and capable authority?

2.. Quote from official publications of an organization to show what they believe?

3.. Use evidence from an authority that his hearer (me) would accept?

The answer to the first question is at best lessened on the count of reliability, if not fully negated. The second count of capable I would generally agree that he did use someone capable. Did he cite official publications from my organization? No. Did he use authorities that I would accept? No. Did he use evidence that I would accept? Did he really expect me to take citations from Harnack without question?

The point of all of this is to show that the Rick has used questionable sources, and stacked the deck in his favor. Even the weight other sources that I have not examined here are mitiaged by other authorities and similar problems as I will demonstrate later. For example, Lampe is a follower of Harnack's Hellenization thesis and is regarded as in the minority. This will come into play later as well. At most, Rick has only shown by citing four or five authorities that the probable truth of his claim is higher, NOT that citing four or five authorities makes his claim true. But I have shown, that Harnack, upon whom Rick rests much of his argument is at the very least a questionable authority who's methods Rick would reject when Harnack used them to argue against doctrines such as the Ascension, the Virgin Birth, the reliability of the Gospels, the pre-existence of Jesus and to maintain views such as pagan influence on Paul. I find it curious that Rick accepts Harnack's conclusions, when it supports his theories and would I presume, reject them when using the very same methods and assumptions when Harnack attacks doctrines central to Rick's own system of theology?

But how about the argument from silence? Does Rick or his sources commit this fallacy as well? Let me take a few examples and offer some criticisms. Rick states on his web page the following,

"The 'Apostles Creed' was current until the end of the 4th Century. Not only did it NOT mention the holy spirit as divine, it did not even call Jesus God. Jesus is called the only-begotten Son of God, just as the bible does."

This is a classical argument from silence. One cannot logically conclude from the absence of evidence what beliefs were not held. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The Apostles' Creed does not mention the teaching that the Bible is the Word of God and is inspired. The Apostles Creed does not specify which books are inspired. The Apostles' Creed does not specify the method of the Virgin birth of Christ. The Apostles' Creed does not specify the polity of the Church. The Apostles creed does not say to worship on Sunday or how to worship for that matter. Now, do we conclude from this silence on these and many other issues that these beliefs did not exist at all? No. This type of reasoning results in all kinds of inane conclusions. Another example would be the Descensus in the Apostles Creed, that is, the phrase that speaks of Christ going down to Hades or the realm of departed souls. That is in the Apostles Creed, but it is not in the Nicene Creed. Are we to believe, using Rick's reasoning, that the Nicene Fathers ceased to believe in the Descensus simply because it is not mentioned in the Nicene Creed? Obviously not. Even looking at Scripture, H.B. Swete notes, echoing Ambrose that,

"The Silence of Scripture about the Spirit in certain places where the Father and the Son are named is not to be pressed any more than its silence about the Father and the Son where the Spirit alone is named." (H.B. Swete, The Holy Spirit in the Ancient Church, MacMillian, 1912, p. 318)

If we were to carry Rick's reasoning out and apply it to Scripture, we would come to all kinds of inane conclusions.

Another fallacy that I would like to take time to look at is the fallacy of a straw man. The Straw man fallacy is committed when a proponent of a view gives a refutation of position that is similar to his opponant and then claims that he has sufficiently refuted his opponant's arguments. I think Rick does this in at least one place. He says,

"It is Perry's incredible assertion that the "wise men" mentioned above are merely so-called in a perjoritive sense, in modern terms a "flame". However it is obvious that he INCLUDES HIMSELF. How so ? GREGORY SAYS SO ! 'Of the 'wise men amongst ourselves' includes him ! For proof just continue reading ! The group of "wise men" includes four different positions :

1) The holy spirit is an 'energia' and Activity (my view)

2) The holy spirit is a creature (the Arian view)

3) The holy spirit is 'God' (The view of Gregory himself)

4) Undecided (the _majority_ view)

So, since Gregory's view is INCLUDED in that of the 'wise men' amongst ourselves' he is NOT using "wise men" in a negative sense, no matter WHAT Perry's fantasy."

Now did I really claim that Gregory was using the phrase in the negative sense? What did I really say? Let's peek back at my original statements.

"I think you will agree that in these passages that the persons being referred to here, or wisdom itself, does not always carry a positive connotation. That is to say, that the wisdom being referred to is not something one would wish for themselves. Hence the phrase "wise men" in the passage from St. Gregory does not of itself require it to hold such a positive connotation or sense. Why do you assume that it does? What evidence from the surrounding context have you given that St. Gregory put a positive sense on those words? I have seen none. And since there is nothing prima facia of the text to indicate which sense it is, I see no reason on the basis of the citation alone to grant either connotation. I think you have here again failed to make your case with sufficient care."

What I would like to know, is where I said that the phrase has a negative connotation? I have claimed in the above citation that Rick has not shown that the phrase "wise men" is in a positive sense. I gave at that time quotations from Scripture (2 Cor. 11:19, 1 Cor. 1:19ff, Romans 1:22 see also 11:25, 12:16, Matt 11:25, Is 5:21) to show that when using that phrase or similar language it does not have to be taken in a positive sense. That is, Rick's argument from the citation from Gregory rested in part on the idea that Gregory admits that the position is undecided because there are different views that are held in equal esteem and were not condemned by Gregory. My contention was simply that the assumption that Gregory was speaking in a positive sense was exactly that, an assumption, which at that time, Rick did not give any evidence to support such an assumption. On the contrary I think it is quite clear that he views the other positions as deficient at best or heretical at worst. On May 10th I made my position quite clear to Mark Ross, who I can only assume passed it on to Rick Stamp.

"Dear Mr. Ross,

It is my intention to set the record straight. My position was never that the theologians that Saint Gregory refereed to were not contemporaneous, but rather that Mr. Stamp never proved his assertion that Gregory did not condemn their opinions or that the phrase "wise men" was being used in a positive connotation and that the phrase "among us" proved that Trinitarian view was a later "development."

What was unclear about what I said? Obviously Rick has created a straw man, because I only argued that the tense was not demonstrated by Rick at that time to be in a positive tense. Rick simply did not bear his burden of proof at that time.

In conclusion to this section, I think I have shown that Rick makes a fallacious appeal to authority, argues from silence and creates a straw man to further his aims. Not that this by itself makes his claims wrong, but it does show that the probable truth-value of them is greatly diminished. I will proceed to examine the factual claims that Rick makes in the next section and go through every line of his argument.

The Main Event

What exactly is Rick's argument? I believe his argument is that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit and hence the Trinity was "undecided" in the Church until after the Council of Constantinople in 381. What do I take issue with? I perfectly agree that there were persons and even theologians and bishops in the Church who did not hold the Holy Spirit to be God or a distinct person or hypostasis during the 4th century. I also would state that the above proposition is applicable to the 3rd century as well. (Saballianism) What I do disagree with is the idea that the doctrine of the Council of Constantinople was "undecided" previous to the Council. Councils are called to deal with issues and general church business. The Church Council in Acts 15 bears this out. Now, I have gone to great pains to show that many teachers in the Church explicitly held the Holy Spirit to be deity or at the very least in the case of the Arians to be a person prior to the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD in my previous post to Rick. This does not mean that the Church invented the teaching simply because it defined it at Constantinople and anathmatized heretics any more than the Apostles invented the doctrine of including the gentiles in the church at the Council in Acts 15. What it means, is, that during times of heresy, political and social upheaval there was much confusion in the Church. Communication was not easy over a Christian Church that went all the way from Britain to Africa and all the way into India. It took weeks or months for "express" communications to reach their destination. Secondly, it also means that it would be natural to find many of the common people and some theologians holding to heretical views. After all, there was no public education and seminaries were scarce. After all, Christianity had just come out of 250 yrs or so persecution. Rick seems to expect the perfect rank and file doctrinal conformity and definitions that exist in the Watchtower society from the Church in the 4th century. Just think about it for a moment. No email, no postal service, no telephones or printing presses, few libraries, no electricity, no trains, no power driven ships, no planes, multiple languages and cultures spaning three continents, etc. (One wonders how the WT would fair in such a situation.) With this background information one begins to understand why A) there were heresies in the Church at various points of time and B) why doctrinal uniformity was not universally present. Consider also the fact that the Canon of Scripture was not fixed until almost 20 years after the Council of Constantinople. This point should not be glossed over too lightly. A clean third of the New Testament and parts of the Old Testament were in doubt in various parts of the Church. Why is it that Rick does not see this a reason to doubt the truthfulness of the Scriptures he believes in, but uses the fact that doctrinal uniformity did not exist regarding the Trinity to cast doubt and disbelief on it? That seems like a double standard to me. After all, it was a Church council that canonized the Bible which the WT and Rick use. And that council was made up of Trinitarians. If they can be trusted with knowing and discerning which works of the Old and New Testaments are inspired and from God, why cannot they also be trusted to define authoritatively the doctrine of God? Rick can't have it both ways.

Now I will begin to cite Rick's statements (in italics) in his post to me and examine them one by one.

"In particular a quotation by St. Augustine became a matter of disagreement between us. I acknowledged that my understanding of that quotation was not complete and thanked Perry for his bringing it to my attention. Augustine is not really an issue at this point any more, except I did find an interesting viewpoint by John S. Romanides, which I have included on my web page which faults Augustine for confusion of the doctrine of the holy spirit which resulted in the 'filoque' which splits the East and West to this day. I have not had the time to determine if Romanides is alone in his belief, but he is a very well known scholar."

This is part of Rick's opening statement. I find it quite curious as to how he plays down his concession to me on this topic. The fact of the matter is that it was not that his understanding of Augustine was "incomplete" but WRONG. His original position was that Augustine was unsure of the deity and personality of the Spirit when he wrote "A Treatise on the Faith and the Creed" in 393 AD. What I argued and what Rick conceded to, was that what Augustine was unsure of, was the specific property that individuated the Holy Spirit's personality from the other persons of the Trinity. Obviously Rick plays this fact down with such euphemisms that his understanding was "incomplete". The fact is, is that he was wrong.

Augustine is no longer an issue between us, because he has conceded that he was wrong. It's just that simple. I also find it interesting that he lands upon the Eastern Orthodox scholar John Ramanides in his critique of Augustine as if critiques of Augustine's doctrine of the Spirit was something new. I mean, really, anyone who was familiar and at home with Patristics and the history of the Church knows that Augustine formulated the Filioque clause and that it was later inserted into the Creed in the West. Furthermore anyone worth their salt knows that there are gobs of Eastern Orthodox thinkers who hold the same general criticisms of Augustine's Pneumatology. It is one of the main reasons for the split between the Eastern and Western Church in the 11th century. See for a Roman Catholic discussion of the topic Yves Congar, I Believe in the Holy Spirit, Seabury Press, 1983, volume 3. Also of note, is how would Rick know that he is a "very well known scholar" if Rick isn't even aware of the general opinion of Eastern Orthodox Scholarship? I find that another curious tidbit.

"Gregory states in the year 380 CE in thirty-first Oration [Orat 31,5] ' But of the wise men amongst ourselves, some have conceived of him as an Activity, some as a Creature, some as God; and some have been uncertain which to call Him.'"

Let me reason with you about Him from a somewhat earlier point, for we have already discussed the Trinity. The Sadducees altogether denied the existence of the Holy Spirit, just as they did that of Angels and the Resurrection; rejecting, I know not upon what ground, the important testimonies concerning Him in the Old Testament. And of the Greeks those who are more inclined to speak of God, and who approach nearest to us, have formed some conception of Him, as it seems to me, though they have differed as to His Name, and have addressed Him as the Mind of the World, or the External Mind, and the like. But of the wise men amongst ourselves, some have conceived of him as an Activity, some as a Creature, some as God; and some have been uncertain which to call Him, out of reverence for Scripture, they say, as though it did not make the matter clear either way. And therefore they neither worship Him nor treat Him with dishonor, but take up a neutral position, or rather a very miserable one, with respect to Him. And of those who consider Him to be God, some are orthodox in mind only, while others venture to be so with the lips also. And I have heard of some who are even more clever, and measure Deity; and these agree with us that there are Three Conceptions; but they have separated these from one another so completely as to make one of them infinite both in essence and power, and the second in power but not in essence, and the third circumscribed in both; thus imitating in another way those who call them the Creator, the Co-operator, and the Minister, and consider that the same order and dignity which belongs to these names is also a sequence in the facts.

The italicized section is what is in dispute between Rick and I. Gregory begins by noting how the Sadducees denied the existence of the Holy Spirit as well as the angels and the resurrection because they rejected a substantial portion of what we consider to be the Old Testament. Then he moves on to the Greek philosophers and how they seem to speak of the Holy Spirit as the "World Mind", a kind of Greek Idealism.

Now when Gregory speaks of those "wise men amongst ourselves" which of them hold his own position? Let's look at the views he elucidates.

1.. The Holy Spirit is an Activity (energia)

2.. The Holy Spirit is a Creature

3.. The Holy Spirit is God

4.. Some are uncertain.

Now of those that believe that the Holy Spirit is God, Gregory further distinguishes the position.

1.. Some hold him to be God only in their mind or conceptually.

2.. Some hold the HS to be God in their thoughts as well as what they profess.

Then Gregory notes that there are others who agree that there are three persons, but yet hold no unity of essence and end up with three gradations of deities.

"It is Perry's incredible assertion that the "wise men" mentioned above are merely so-called in a pejorative sense, in modern terms a "flame". However it is obvious that he INCLUDES HIMSELF. How so ? GREGORY SAYS SO ! 'Of the 'wise men amongst ourselves' includes him ! For proof just continue reading ! The group of "wise men" includes four different positions :

1) The holy spirit is an 'energia' and Activity (my view)

2) The holy spirit is a creature (the Arian view)

3) The holy spirit is 'God' (The view of Gregory himself)

4) Undecided (the _majority_ view)

So, since Gregory's view is INCLUDED in that of the 'wise men' amongst ourselves' he is NOT using "wise men" in a negative sense, no matter WHAT Perry's fantasy."

I think I have demonstrated the Straw man argument that Rick commits in this first part so I will not comment on it. Let's examine some of the more minor points first. Rick labels his perspective as viewing the Holy Spirit as an energia or activity. He then labels the view that the Holy Spirit was a creature the Arian view. Actually both of these views are Arian. The view that the Holy Spirit was a personal creature is the earlier Arian view and the belief that the Holy Spirit was an activity or power was a later view of some Arians known as the Pneumatomachi. Their view did not arise until between the period of 356-360 AD. Hence previous to that point in time, the only views on the theological landscape were 2, 3 and 4. The view that the Spirit was a mere principle, force or activity was unknown to the Nicene and pre-Nicene Church except to one heretic. In short, both views 1 and 2 are Arian.

Now as to what was the majority viewpoint, Rick states that the majority view was undecided. Where does Rick get this idea? Where in the text cited by Rick does it say who is the majority or minority? IT DOESN'T. St. Gregory specifically uses the term "some". "Some hold X, Some hold Y, Some hold Z." He doesn't list their numbers. ? Where does Gregory denote who or what is the majority? What constitutes a majority in the early Church? The number of laymen and clergy combined? The laymen only? The clergy only? St. Gregory does not say in this text. But I think that I can safely say that from the practice of only having bishops decide matters in a council that what was considered the majority were the bishops. So it would seem that a majority would be counted by bishops. But Rick has not even shown where he gets the conclusion that the undecided were the majority from! It just pops out of thin air! But how many bishops were at the Council of Constantinople? 186, at least at the beginning. There were 150 Orthodox bishops and about 36 Pneumatomachi bishops. How Rick gets the idea that 36 is the majority over 150 is beyond me! This is not only my opinion, but the opinion of a number of scholars. H.B. Swete, an opponent of Harnack, for example comments that

"Whatever individuals may have thought, the consensus of opinion in the ancient Church supported a belief in the personal subsistence of the Holy Spirit." (See his The Holy Spirit in the Ancient Church, MacMillan, 1912, p. 375)

"those who took Him [the Holy Spirit] for an energy were probably a small minority of persons who were either infected will Sabellian views, or sought to escape from the controversy of the hour by denying that the Holy Spirit was an entity of any kind, created or Divine. Such a rejection of the personal life of the Spirit must have been rare within the Catholic Church…" Ibid, p. 375

R.P.C. Hanson, a Church historian and Patristics scholar notes,

"Certainly neither Egyptians nor the representatives of more westerly dioceses were particularly troubled by Macedonian views; this was a deviation mostly appearing in the prefecture of Oriens[the East]." (R.P.C. Hanson, The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God: The Arian Controversy 318-381, T. & T. Clark, 1997, p. 809)

Other Church historians agree, such as Hans-Georg Beck, Eugen Ewig, Hermann Josef and Vogt when they comment, "An agreement between the orthodox majority and the Pneumatomachoi or Macedonians was of the deepest concern to Theodosius too." ( Hans-Georg Beck, Eugen Ewig, Hermann Josef and Vogt The Imperial Church: From Constantine to the Early Middles Ages, Seabury Press, 1980, p.63.)

John Henry Newman, in his The Arians of the Fourth Century states, "As to Semi-Arianism it disappears from ecclesiastical history at the date of the proposed Council of Tarsus (A..D. 367); from which time the portion of the party, which remained non-conformist, is more properly designated Macedonian, or Pneumatomachist, from the chief article of their heresy." (John Henry Newman, The Arians of the Fourth Century, Longmans Green 1901, p. 379)

"Except for Milan and sections of Illyria, the battle for Nicea was largely won in the West." (Leo Donald Davis, The First Seven Ecumenical Councils: Their History and Theology, Liturgical Press, 1983, p. 109- NOTE-the author refers to the year 364 A.D.)

Other examples are given below from contemporaries. In Edessa Sozomen gives this report,

"The emperor went to Antioch, and entirely ejected from the churches of that city and of the neighboring cities all those who adhered to the Nicene doctrines; moreover, he oppressed them with manifold punishments; as some affirm, he commanded many to be put to death in various ways, and caused others to be cast into the river Orontes. Having heard that there was a magnificent oratory at Edessa, named after the Apostle Thomas, he went to see it. He beheld the members of the Catholic Church assembled for worship in the plain before the walls of the city; for there, too, they had been deprived of their houses of prayer. It is said that the emperor reproached the prefect thoroughly and struck him on the jaw with his fist for having permitted these congregations contrary to his edict. Modestus (for this was the name of the prefect), although he was himself a heretic, secretly warned the people of Edessa not to meet for prayer on the accustomed spot the next day; for he had received orders from the emperor to punish all who should be seized. He uttered such threats with the forethought that none, or at least but a few, would incur danger, and with the desire to appease the wrath of the monarch. But the people of Edessa, totally disregarding the threat, ran together with more than their customary zeal, and filled the usual place of meeting.

Modestus, on being apprised of their proceedings, was undecided as to what measures ought to be adopted, and repaired in embarrassment to the plain with the throng. A woman, leading a child by the hand, and trailing her mantle in a way unbefitting the decency of women, forced her way through the files of the soldiers who were conducted by the prefect, as if bent upon some affair of importance. Modestus remarked her conduct, ordered her to be arrested, and summoned her into his presence, to inquire the cause of her running. She replied that she was hastening to the plain where the members of the Catholic Church were assembled. "Know you not," replied Modestus, "that the prefect is on his way thither for the purpose of condemning to death all who are found on the spot?" "I have heard so," replied she, "and this is the very reason of my haste; for I am fearful of arriving too late, and thus losing the honor of martyrdom for God." The governor having asked her why she took her child with her, she replied, "In order that he may share in the common suffering, and participate in the same reward." Modestus, struck with astonishment at the courage of this woman, went to the emperor, and, acquainting him with what had occurred, persuaded him not to carry out a design which he showed to be disgraceful and disastrous. Thus was the Christian faith confessed by the whole city of Edessa." (Sozom 6, 18)

In Samosata Theodoret relates,

"The Arian faction, after depriving the flock of their right excellent shepherd, set up another bishop in his place; but not an inhabitant of the city, were he herding in indigence or blazing in wealth, not a servant, not a handicraftsman, not a hind, not a gardener, nor man nor woman, whether young or old, came, as had been their wont, to gatherings in church. The new bishop lived all alone; not a soul looked at him, or exchanged a word with him. Yet the report is that he behaved with courteous moderation, of which the following instance is a proof. On one occasion he had expressed a wish to bathe, so his servants shut the doors of the bath, and kept out all who wished to come in. When he saw the crowd before the doors he ordered them to be thrown open, and directed that every one should freely use the bath. He exhibited the same conduct in the halls within; for on observing certain men standing by him while he bathed he begged them to share the hot water with him. They stood silent. Thinking their hesitation was due to a respect for him, he quickly arose and made his way out, but these persons had really been of opinion that even the water was affected with the pollution of his heresy, and so sent it all down the sinks, while they ordered a fresh supply to be provided for themselves. On being informed of this the intruder departed from the city, for he judged that it was insensate and absurd on his part to continue to reside in a city which detested him, and treated him as a common foe. On the departure of Eunomius (for this was his name) from Samosata, Lucius, an unmistakable wolf, and enemy of the sheep, was appointed in his place. But the sheep, all shepherdless as they were, shepherded themselves, and persistently preserved the apostolic doctrine in all its purity. How the new intruder was detested the following relation will set forth.

Some lads were playing ball in the market place and enjoying the game, when Lucius was passing by. It chanced that the ball was dropped and passed between the feet of the ass. The boys raised an outcry because they thought that their ball was polluted. On perceiving this Lucius told one of his suite to stop and learn what was going on. The boys lit a fire and tossed the ball through the flames with the idea that by so doing they purified it. I know indeed that this was but a boyish act, and a survival of the ancient ways; but it is none the less sufficient to prove in what hatred the town held the Arian faction." ( Theodoret 4, 13)

Of Pontus we read,

"Eulalius, bishop of Amasia in Pontus, was one of those who pursued this course of conduct. It is said that when he returned from exile, he found that his church was presided over by an Arian bishop, and that scarcely fifty inhabitants of the city had submitted to the control of this new bishop. Eulalius, desiring unity above all other considerations, offered to take part with the Arian bishop in the government of the church, and expressly agreed to allow him the precedence. But as the Arian would not comply with this proposition, it was not long before he found himself deserted by the few who had followed him, and who went over to the other party. " (Sozom7,2)

Of Nicomedia we read,

"Certain pious men of the clerical order, eighty in number, among whom Urbanus, Theodore, and Menedemus were the leaders, proceeded to Nicomedia, and there presented to the emperor a supplicatory petition, informing him and complaining of the ill-usage to which they had been subjected. The emperor was filled with wrath; but dissembled his displeasure in their presence, and gave Modestus the prefect a secret order to apprehend these persons, and put them to death. The manner in which they were destroyed being unusual, deserves to be recorded. The prefect fearing that he should excite the populace to a seditious movement against himself, if he attempted the public execution of so many, pretended to send the men away into exile. Accordingly as they received the intelligence of their destiny with great firmness of mind the prefect ordered that they should be embarked as if to be conveyed to their several places of banishment, having meanwhile enjoined on the sailors to set the vessel on fire, as soon as they reached the mid sea, that their victims being so destroyed, might even be deprived of burial." (Socr. 4, 16)

In Rome and in the West we read,

"With respect to doctrine, however, no dissension arose either at Rome or in any other of the Western churches. The people unanimously adhered to the form of belief established at Nicea, and regarded the three persons of the Trinity as equal in dignity and in power." (Sozom 6, 23)

In Scythia we read,

"Arianism met with similar opposition at the same period in Osröene; but in the Cappadocias, Providence allotted such a divine and most educated pair of men,-Basil, the bishop of Caesarea in that country, and Gregory, bishop of Nazianzen. Syria and the neighboring provinces, and more especially the city of Antioch, were plunged into confusion and disorder; for the Arians were very numerous in these parts, and had possession of the churches. The members of the Catholic Church were not, however, few in number. They were called Eustathians and Paulinists, and were under the guidance of Paulinus and Meletius, as has been before stated. It was through their instrumentality that the church of Antioch was preserved from the encroachments of the Arians, and enabled to resist the zeal of the emperor and of those in power about him. Indeed, it appears that in all the churches which were governed by brave men, the people did not deviate from their former opinions. It is said that this was the cause of the firmness with which the Scythians adhered to their faith. There are in this country a great number of cities, villages, and fortresses. The metropolis is called Tomi; it is a large and populous city, and lies on the sea-shore to the left of one sailing to the sea, called the Euxine. According to an ancient custom which still prevails, all the churches of the whole country are under the sway of one bishop. Vetranio ruled over these churches at the period that the emperor visited Tomi. Valens repaired to the church, and strove, according to his usual custom, to gain over the bishop to the heresy of Arius; but this latter manfully opposed his arguments, and after a courageous defense of the Nicene doctrines, quitted the emperor and proceeded to another church, whither he was followed by the people. Almost the entire city had crowded to see the emperor, for they expected that something extraordinary would result from this interview with the bishop. Valens was extremely offended at being left alone in the church with his attendants, and in resentment, condemned Vetranio to banishment. Not long after, however, he recalled him, because, I believe, he apprehended an insurrection; for the Scythians were offended at the absence of their bishop." (Sozom 6,23)

In Illyria we read,

"The parents of Theodosius were Christians, and were attached to the Nicene doctrines; he was pleased with Ascholius, who maintained the same doctrines, and was, in a word, endowed with every virtue of the priesthood. He also rejoiced at finding that the Arian heresy had not been participated in by Illyria." (Sozom 6, 23)

I think this makes it clear who in general was the "majority" and that Rick simply asserts his claim that the majority was "undecided." Now, does Gregory say that he is one of the "wise men" or philosophers? He says that they are "among" a group of people whom he labels as "ourselves." But let's take a step back. What if Rick is right? What if Gregory is one of the "wise men?" What does it prove? It proves that there were various leaders in the Christian Church at that time who did not hold the orthodox position. SO WHAT? Does that prove that the Orthodox position was invented? No, because as I have shown in my previous post, there were numerous Fathers who stated either the personality of the Spirit or His deity or both prior to Nicea all the way back to the late 1st century and early 2nd century. Not only that, but there are pre-Nicene prayers from Hippolytus' The Apostolic Tradition (200 AD) which include prayers ascribing worship, honor and glory not only to the Father and the Son, but to the Holy Spirit as well. Not only were they public prayers but it was part of the baptismal rite to ascribe glory, honor and worship to the Spirit as well as to the other persons of the Trinity. ( See Sec 3:6, 4:13, 8:4-5, 21:11b, 22:1, 26:26) These references among a plethora of others proves that though there was a lack of a formal explication of the orthodox position there was the practice and the basic Trinitarian theology in the life of the early Church a clean 100 years before Nicea, let alone Constantinople in 381 AD. Secondly, it doesn't make a big difference to me if there were teachers or wise men or philosophers or theologians in the early church who were heretical. What matters is what Jesus' Church decided in Council. Rick's argument amounts to the fact that there were Judiazers in the Church who rejected Paul's position (which was later ratified by the Acts 15 Council) as somehow proving that Paul's position was not true, or not the position of the Church. This is non-sense. Jesus himself gives us the model of settling disputes in the Church. You take it to the Church to decide the matter. If the parties don't listen to the decision of the Church they are to considered as unbelievers. If Rick wishes to reject the Church's decisions I find it curious that he accepts their Bible and accepts their decisions as to what is and what is not the Bible. Why? The Bible was canonized AFTER the Nicene controversy. If they cannot be trusted with the doctrine of God, how can Rick believe that they can be trusted with selecting and recognizing which books are Scripture? Even without the Council of Carthage in 398 AD the Gospel manuscripts are anonymous I believe before 250-300 AD. That is, the names of the Apostles ascribed to them are part of the Nicene period by and large. Not only that but Hebrews is anonymous and other texts such as Revelation, 1st & 2nd Peter, 1st, 2nd, 3rd John, James and Jude were in question as well. This is only to scratch the surface of knowing authorship apart from Church decisions and Tradition. One is left to rely on Church Fathers to know if the Gospels are Apostolic or not. In short, Rick has to rely on the Tradition that he sees as unreliable and demonic in order to even KNOW what works are Scripture. If he wishes to run to the Jews for assistance, I don't think he will fair any better there. For the pre-Christian Jews differed among themselves as to what was Scripture and what was not, as did the Jews of the first century. The Jewish council of Jamnia held in 90 AD after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD consolidated the remaining Pharasaical traditions of Judaism as well as adding a daily prayer cursing Christians. Now, if Rick would like to use them as a source as to know what is or is not Scripture (the OT only since obviously they flat out rejected the NT) then I would like to know how he can trust the spiritual discernment of persons who could not even recognize Messiah when he was in their own generation?! Not to mention the fact that they were pronouncing curses on God's people. The point is, if the Church is not guided by the Spirit, by God, then we can't trust the contents of the Bible. Now, another point of similar interest is that I find it so very very strange that Rick and other JW's have such an implicit trust in the WT organization as being guided by Jehovah God and that the "light gets brighter and brighter" but yet the Church blew it. This is the common ad hoc argument of all self proclaimed prophets. They think they get some new revelation or liver shiver, whether it be LDS, Adventism, JW's, The Way International, etc. etc. etc., and the only way they can justify that revelation after the fact is by denying that the Church is valid. They point to moral failures in history and theological controversies and make claims that the victors write the history. First, the point that they miss is that their sect did not even exist in order to make moral failures or have doctrinal controversies, let alone write any history. The second point to notice is that they all posit the "secret invisible church" doctrine. They try to argue that before some such "apostasy" they were the first century church, but they can't prove it in any clear way. Or they modify this and maintain that their believers were present at various times continuous throughout Church history. They claim the Arians or Modalists or whatever groups is like them now, but what they fail to see is that there is no continuity between the various groups. For example, the JW's like to pick out the Arians and then later on in the middle ages various Anabaptist groups that denied the Trinity or the Incarnation. But what they can't show is that one group is related to another in any real or organic way, which is exactly what they do need to prove. The Oneness Pentacostals do the same thing by picking up on Sabellius or Zypherinius or Michael Servetus. And yet there is no historical connection or coherent similarity between the two parties. The fact is, the WT was not there to be a winner or loser because the WT is just another sect which, when all is said and done, is another fly speck on the map of Christian History. The point is, either the Church is guided by God, established by God and loved by God and the Scriptures which the Church gives us are His Infallible Inerrant Word, or the Scriptures are a collection of books which some people think are inspired but no one is quite sure if they all are or if we are missing some. Rick must chose that either both are reliable or both are not, and not just one or the other. If the Church was not reliable and capable by God's power to overcome the powers of Satan and apostasy, then the Scriptures are not reliable. If the Scriptures are reliable, then the so is the Church. This is a common dilemna for all sectarians, Rick included. But the problem is worse. The WT society posits that one cannot rightly understand the Scriptures without the interpretation of God's Organization. Now, how do we know that the WT is God's organization? Any appeal to the Scriptures is question begging since one would need God's Organization (not to mention to know what God was like) in order to properly understand the Scriptures to begin with. I can easily show historical and doctrinal continuity through 2,000 of God's people where as Rick can only show from 1873 onward. Which do you think is closer to Jesus? Polycarp, Ireneaus, Ignatius, Clement, Justin, Origen, Tertullian and dozens of Church councils or the WT Society? Gee, that's NOT a hard one to sort out. But back to Gregory and his "wise men."

Rick argues that the phrase "among ourselves" means that Gregory was one of the "wise men" of the groups that he elucidates. But is this phrase always used in this way? Let's look at a Scriptural example.

Romans 16:7 "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

Now, are Junia and Andornicus apostles simply because they are AMONG the Apostles? Were their women Apostles? Obviously not, so why would one think that just because Gregory says that there are various groups "among ourselves" that he is necessarily including himself in those categories, even if one of them happens to agree with his perspective? After all, Gregory uses the phrase "wise men" in other contexts in a derogatory or pejorative manner. For example,

"He next, by constant meditation on the divine words, though a late student of such matters, gathered together so much wisdom within a short time that he was in no wise excelled by those who had spent the greatest toil upon them, and received this special grace from God, that he became the father and teacher of orthodoxy--not, like our modern wise men, yielding to the spirit of the age, nor defending our faith by indefinite and sophistical language, as if they bad no fixity of faith, or were adulterating the truth; but, he was more pious than those who possessed rhetorical power, more skilled in rhetoric than those who were upright in mind; or rather, while he took the second place as an orator, he surpassed all in piety. He acknowledged One God worshipped in Trinity, and Three, Who are united in One Godhead; neither Sabellianising(g) as to the One, nor Arianising as to the Three; either by contracting and so atheistically annihilating the Godhead, or by tearing It asunder by distinctions of unequal greatness or nature. For, seeing that Its every quality is incomprehensible and beyond the power of our intellect, how can we either perceive or express by definition on such a subject, that which is beyond our ken? How can the immeasurable be measured, and the Godhead be reduced to the condition of finite things, and measured by degrees(a) of greater or less?" (Oration, 18, sec 16)

Hence the phrase can be used by Gregory in more than one sense. But this is not generally what I think the passage in Gregory means, but it is a question that I think Rick needs to ponder. As a last parting point, it should also be pointed out that the phrase "wise men" can be translated differently and has been by different scholars. For example, Swete translates it "Christian philosophers." (Swete, The Apostles' Creed, p. 36) That certainly puts a different spin on the subject does it not?

Context, Context, Context…

I think in examining this passage Rick misses a crucial piece of information, namely that of context. Rick seems to think that the mere presence of various views at a specific point of time proves an indecision on the part of the Church on the issue of the Holy Spirit's personality and deity. But obviously if these varieties took place during a period when false teaching had Imperial support, as the Arians did for a long period, and was widespread, Gregory is not giving the idea that the Church is undecided. But rather that during that period and place there are a variety of positions, which would only be natural during a time of heresy.

Where is Gregory preaching this oration on the Holy Spirit and why? The sermons were preached in Constantinople which had been under Arian control for forty years. The Orthodox were dispossed of their churches by Imperial command. Gregory preaches this sermon upon the Orthodox regaining the churches of Constantinople, even though many of the people there were still Arian. This occurred about 380 AD. H.B. Swete notes,

"In the year of St. Basil's death [379 AD] his friend Gregory of Nanzianzus, Bishop of Sasima, was called to Constantinople to reorganize the small Catholic minority which languished in the capital. His five great Theological Orations probably belong to the following year (380); the last of them is a pronouncement on the theology of the Holy Spirit which, delivered at the heart of the Empire on the eve of the Council which was summoned to reaffirm the Nicene Faith, must at that time have exercised a greater influence than fell to the lot of Basil's treatise." (The Holy Spirit in the Ancient Church, p. 240)

"Early in 379, by which time the reign of Valens was over and the prospects were much brighter for the pro-Nicenes, he responded to a call to come to Constantinople and preach the pro-Nicene faith in a private house (the Arians having possession of all the churches in that city) which was later made into a little church and called Anastasia. Here he developed and expanded his oratorial powers on behalf of the cause which he championed. Here he delivered the famous Five Theological Orations." R.P.C. Hanson, The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God, T&T Clark, 1997, p.703)

Hence the historical context does not mean that every theologian in the church held those views, of the ones "amongst ourselves." This too is a possible understanding of St. Gregory's words. Gregory is simply noting the various views held in the geographical area that he is in. He is speaking about his immediate social context. In light of other evidence it would be foolish for Gregory to say that those views existed in other parts of the Church since the Pneumatomachi were limited to the West and Arianism was pretty much wiped out in the West by 380. Not only that Gregory's knowledge of the West was limited. He is then most likely speaking of his own general context, Constantinople. Even if this view were not the case, and Gregory were speaking of all Christian theologians at that time it would only mean that some Christian theologians were heretical. This had taken place during the time of Sabellius and the Gnostics and even after the Nicene period. Heretical theologians in the Church at periods of controversy does not mean that the Church lacks a definite position on the subject. If this were the case it would mean that the Church lacked a doctrine of Jesus coming in the flesh because John notes that there were those who denied the humanity of Jesus who went out from us, were within the body, though not really part of the body. They went out of the Church because they rejected the humanity of Christ. Hence the presence of false opinions and teachers in the Church at various times does not mean that the church lacks a position, any more than the Church lacked a position in relation to the Judaizers before the Acts 15 council, it was found in St. Paul, confirmed in St Peter's vision and pronounced by St. James. Even beyond that, it is found in Jesus's teaching in the Gospels, prior to that controversy.

Let us move on to examine the next section of Rick's post. In the next section he says,

"In fact the view of Gregory was a MINORITY view !!!!! How do we know ? He says in Orat. 41,6, that there is something HEROIC about those who will call the holy spirit 'God'. In this same section he states that this belief was NOT plainly revealed to men because it would have been too great of a burden on them. Wolfson also quotes Gregory (Orat 31,5) as saying that of those who believed that the holy spirit was 'God', that they held it so in their hearts but did not DARE utter it with their lips ! This is in 380 AD !"

First, I would like to know how Rick jumps from there being something heroic about proclaiming the deity of the Holy Spirit to that view being the minority view? Just because it may be heroic does not mean that it is the minority view. It could be that in that locale it is the minority or say at that time the Government supported another view, even though the majority of Christians in the Empire did not. It does not necessarily follow that just because there is something heroic about holding the Orthodox viewpoint that it is the minority viewpoint. I will show WHY Gregory says this. At the same time I will explain why those who did not dare to utter it on their lips did not dare to do so.

A Topsey-Turby World

During the Arian controversy the state and the Church were related, though the official religion of the empire did not become Christianity until 380. After the death of Constantine in 337 AD there were a series of emperors who were by and large Arian. Some like Julian the Apostate reverted back to paganism and persecuted the Church to some extant. The Arian Emperors to a greater or lesser degree persecuted the Orthodox. They were killed, beaten, exiled or deprived of Churches in which to worship. I think I made this manifest in the numerous citations that I gave above. But in case that does not suffice let me provide first a general historical outline and then more documenation.

336-Athanasius' first exile

337 Constantine dies-Three Emperors rule the Empire (Constans, Constantine II, Constantius II)

340 Constans rules West-Nicene; Constantius rules East-Arian

341 Council of Antioch (Eusebian-Semi-Arian)

343 Councils of Sardica (Nicene), Philipopolis (Eusebian-Semi-Arian)

345 Synod of Milan (Eusebian-Semi-Arian)

350 Constans dies-Constantius sole ruler of the empire (Arian)

351 First Council of Sirmium (Eusebian-Semi-Arian)

352 Liberius succeeded Julius at Rome (352-366)

353 Council of Arles (Eusebian)

355 Council of Milan (Eusebian)-Liberius and Ossius are exiled (Nicene)

356 Hilary of Pointiers is exiled

357 Second Sirmium Council (Anomean-Arian)

358 Council of Ancyra (Homoiousian-Semi-Arian)

359 Council of Rimini-Seleucia (Homoean-Arian)

360 Council of Constantinople (Homoean-Arian)

361 Julian the Apostate takes the throne as sole ruler (Pagan)

362 Conference of Alexandria led by Athanasius

363 Jovian succeeded Julian as sole emperor (Nicene)

364 Jovian dies-Valentinian I emperor of the West (Nicene)-Valens is emperor of the East)

366 Athanasius returns from his fifth and final exile

370 Basil becomes bishop of Cesarea in Cappadocia

373 Ambrose becomes bishop of Milan

375 Valentinian dies-Gratian becomes western emperor

377 Council of Rome Condemns Apollinarianism and Macedonianism

378 Valens dies in battle

379 Theodosius becomes emperor in the East

(See Leo Donald Davis, The First Seven Ecumenical Councils: Their History and Theology, Liturgical Press, 1983, p. 131-132)

Regarding the persecution that the Orthodox received at the hands of the Arians, let me first burden the reader with citations from contemporary and primary course material and then I present some scholarly opinions on the matter.

"The enemy were on the watch for the unqualified statement "the Spirit is God;" which, although it is true, they and the wicked patron of their impiety imagined to be impious; so that they might banish him and his power of theological instruction from the city, and themselves be able to seize upon the church, and make it the starting point and citadel, from which they could overrun with their evil doctrine the rest of the world. Accordingly, by the use of other terms, and by statements which unmistakably had the same meaning, and by arguments necessarily leading to this conclusion, he so overpowered his antagonists, that they were left without reply, and involved in their own admissions,--the greatest proof possible of dialectical power and skill." (Gregory of Nanzianzus, Orat. 43.68)

"But we must now mention in what way Macedonius desolated the churches in the cities and provinces around Constantinople. This man, as I have already said, having seized the bishopric, inflicted innumerable calamities on such as were unwilling to adopt his views. His persecutions were not confined to those who were recognized as members of the catholic church, but extended to the Novatians also, inasmuch as he knew that they maintained the doctrine of the homoousion; they therefore with the others underwent the most intolerable sufferings, but their bishop, Angelius by name, effected his escape by flight. Many persons eminent for their piety were seized and tortured, because they refused to communicate with him: and after the torture, they forcibly constrained the men to be partakers of the holy mysteries, their mouths being forced open with a piece of wood, and then the consecrated elements thrust into them. Those who were so treated regarded this as a punishment far more grievous than all others. Moreover they laid hold of women and children, and compelled them to be initiated [by baptism]; and if any one resisted or otherwise spoke against it, stripes immediately followed, and after the stripes, bonds and imprisonment, and other violent measures. I shall here relate an instance or two whereby the reader may form some idea of the extent of the harshness and cruelty exercised by Macedonius and those who were then in power. They first pressed in a box, and then sawed off, the breasts of such women as were unwilling to communicate with them. The same parts of the persons. of other women they burnt partly with iron, and partly with eggs intensely heated in the fire. This mode of torture which was unknown even among the heathen, was invented by those who professed to be Christians. These facts were related to me by the aged Auxanon, the presbyter in the Novatian church of whom I spoke in the first book. He said also that he had himself endured not a few severities from the Arians, prior to his reaching the dignity of presbyter; having been thrown into prison and beaten with many stripes, together with Alexander the Paphlagonian, his companion in the monastic life. He added that he had himself been able to sustain these tortures, but that Alexander died in prison from the effects of their infliction. He is now buried on the right of those sailing into the bay of Constantinople which is called Ceras, close by the rivers, where there is a church of the Novatians named after Alexander. Moreover the Arians, at the instigation of Macedonius, demolished with many other churches in various cities, that of the Novatians at Constantinople near Pelargus. Why I particularly mention this church, will be seen from the extraordinary circumstances connected with it, as testified by the same aged Auxanon. The emperor's edict and the violence of Macedonius had doomed to destruction the churches of those who maintained the doctrine of consubstantiality; the decree and violence reached this church, and those also who were charged with the execution of the mandate were at hand to carry it into effect. I cannot but admire the zeal displayed by the Novatians on this occasion, as well as the sympathy they experienced from those whom the Arians at that time ejected, but who are now in peaceful possession of their churches. For when the emissaries of their enemies were urgent to accomplish its destruction, an immense multitude of Novatians, aided by numbers of others who held similar sentiments, having assembled around this devoted church, pulled it down, and conveyed the materials of it to another place: this place stands opposite the city, and is called Sycae, and forms the thirteenth ward of the town of Constantinople. This removal was effected in a very short time, from the extraordinary ardor of the numerous persons engaged in it: one carried tiles, another stones, a third timber; some loading themselves with one thing, and some with another. Even women a